Quote from: s3779m on December 29, 2016, 12:09:52 PM
As long as each ticket get you into the game, there is a value. What would the value be if there were 500,000 tickets printed but only 50,000 seats?

Or to put it as Ayn Rand put it:

When we were on the gold standard, an ounce of gold could buy you 20 sacks of groceries

Now that we're off the gold standard, an ounce of gold would still buy you 20 sacks of groceries, it just takes more dollars to back it up

The lesson: The more unbacked dollars you print, the higher the rate of inflation

Quote from: s3779m on December 29, 2016, 12:09:52 PM
As long as each ticket get you into the game, there is a value. What would the value be if there were 500,000 tickets printed but only 50,000 seats?

Of course, we both know the answer to that question.

But that really wasn't the point I was making.  The point was that tokens like gift cards, tickets and dollars have value because they are a claim on real productivity.  Dollars in this case, are worthless on Mars, but because you can purchase things of real value here, then they do have value as long as that arangment is in place.

Now if the claim being made here is that creating dollars by default creates price inflation, that is false.

Let's take your question, but change it slightly.  Not to manipulate the outcome, but to keep with the point.

What if instead of the Superbowl, which has only one game and very real physical limitations, there was a broadway show that had a venue of 5k seats and planned 10 shows (50k total seats), but they accidently sold 500K tickets?  Could it not be said that the tickets printed and sold created more work for the actors if the number of shows were increased to 100?

The ticket, as I'm sure we can agree, is a claim on something of real value.  Creating more tickets and the income that comes with it, may have made it possible to pay the actors and rent the venue ect for the time needed to honor all 500k of the tickets.

So when creating dollars, it doesn't automatically cause inflation, it causes inflation IF the new level of demand created by those dollars cannot be met with an increase in productivity to ensure that anyone that wants to use a dollar to buy a good or service can find it.  Price inflation happens when the demand for goods and services outpaces the supply or the efficiency which those goods can be delivered to market decreases, or some other outside variable rises.

It's not the dollars that create inflation, but the ratio of dollars to the potential of the economy they are issued in to meet the new level of demand that causes inflation.

If the government decided to create $1 trillion new dollars to create a state of the art bullet train from NY to LA.  Are you telling me that we can't afford it?  That's ridiculous, the government can create all the dollars it wants.  Will the creation of $1 trillion new dollars cause price inflation?  If yes what you're saying is that the US does not have enough labor and raw materials to build a train without causing widespread shortages in either labor or raw materials such that prices rise.  Yet we funded 2 major wars for trillions of dollars without creating hyperinflation...??  Hmmmm?  How did we do that?  We did it because the labor and real raw materials existed in the economy to create the things necessary to fight 2 wars.

Quote from: Ghoulardi on December 29, 2016, 12:15:44 PM
Or to put it as Ayn Rand put it:

When we were on the gold standard, an ounce of gold could buy you 20 sacks of groceries

Now that we're off the gold standard, an ounce of gold would still buy you 20 sacks of groceries, it just takes more dollars to back it up

The lesson: The more unbacked dollars you print, the higher the rate of inflation

You've completely ignored the fact that salaries are not static.  If salaries grow as the increase in dollars grows, it is possible for the dollars to cost less in real terms even if it takes more dollars in nominal terms.  And indeed that's exactly what we see.

Quote from: Econ4Every1 on December 29, 2016, 01:14:07 PM
You've completely ignored the fact that salaries are not static.

And a praying mantis is the only insect that can sneeze. So?

Quote
If salaries grow as the increase in dollars grows, it is possible for the dollars to cost less in real terms even if it takes more dollars in nominal terms.  And indeed that's exactly what we see.

And who cares? Most of us are concerned with buying power

Quote from: Econ4Every1 on December 29, 2016, 01:14:07 PM
You've completely ignored the fact that salaries are not static.  If salaries grow as the increase in dollars grows, it is possible for the dollars to cost less in real terms even if it takes more dollars in nominal terms.  And indeed that's exactly what we see.

You ignore the fact that wages and salaries invariably lag behind inflation, and therefore the buying power of the citizenry is still diminished. The end result is Joe Average Citizen cannot purchase what they could purchase before deficit spending on the part of government caused inflation to decrease the value of their labor.

Quote from: Econ4Every1 on December 29, 2016, 01:14:07 PM
You've completely ignored the fact that salaries are not static.  If salaries grow as the increase in dollars grows, it is possible for the dollars to cost less in real terms even if it takes more dollars in nominal terms.  And indeed that's exactly what we see.

You've scoffed at both Solar and Taxed's credentials of being businessmen.

What are your credentials to lecture on econ?

Quote from: Econ4Every1 on December 29, 2016, 01:12:08 PM
Of course, we both know the answer to that question.

Just to be sure, the answer would be that the tickets have almost no value?

Quote from: Econ4Every1 on December 29, 2016, 01:12:08 PMBut that really wasn't the point I was making.  The point was that tokens like gift cards, tickets and dollars have value because they are a claim on real productivity.  Dollars in this case, are worthless on Mars, but because you can purchase things of real value here, then they do have value as long as that arangment is in place.

Even the tokens, gift cards, tickets and, you get the point, would be worthless on Mars. Even if the government would print billions, that too would be worthless on mars.

Quote from: Econ4Every1 on December 29, 2016, 01:12:08 PMNow if the claim being made here is that creating dollars by default creates price inflation, that is false.

Who has claimed that??

Quote from: Econ4Every1 on December 29, 2016, 01:12:08 PMLet's take your question, but change it slightly.  Not to manipulate the outcome, but to keep with the point.

What if instead of the Superbowl, which has only one game and very real physical limitations, there was a broadway show that had a venue of 5k seats and planned 10 shows (50k total seats), but they accidently sold 500K tickets?  Could it not be said that the tickets printed and sold created more work for the actors if the number of shows were increased to 100?

Not at all. How, with limited space for shows and limited "star" actors can this take place for the day on the ticket, unless you have to change the dates to something that the customer might not want but you are forcing them to accept. And if no one wants the new dates, or new places , or the new actors what has happened to the value of the tickets?

Quote from: Econ4Every1 on December 29, 2016, 01:12:08 PMThe ticket, as I'm sure we can agree, is a claim on something of real value.  Creating more tickets and the income that comes with it, may have made it possible to pay the actors and rent the venue ect for the time needed to honor all 500k of the tickets.

No, you are assuming that each new show will have the same value to the consumer, if it does not, the consumer loses. A much better way to increase the profits would be to create the shows first and then sell the tickets. In which case the tickets would hold their value.

Quote from: Econ4Every1 on December 29, 2016, 01:12:08 PMSo when creating dollars, it doesn't automatically cause inflation, it causes inflation IF the new level of demand created by those dollars cannot be met with an increase in productivity to ensure that anyone that wants to use a dollar to buy a good or service can find it.  Price inflation happens when the demand for goods and services outpaces the supply or the efficiency which those goods can be delivered to market decreases, or some other outside variable rises.

Just like your example of the tickets for the super bowl, which was a good example by the way, creating the "extra" tickets made them worth less, and creating far too many made them worthless. Kinda of like when governments just print money.

It's not the dollars that create inflation, but the ratio of dollars to the potential of the economy they are issued in to meet the new level of demand that causes inflation.

Quote from: Econ4Every1 on December 29, 2016, 01:12:08 PMIf the government decided to create $1 trillion new dollars to create a state of the art bullet train from NY to LA.  Are you telling me that we can't afford it?  That's ridiculous, the government can create all the dollars it wants.  Will the creation of $1 trillion new dollars cause price inflation?  If yes what you're saying is that the US does not have enough labor and raw materials to build a train without causing widespread shortages in either labor or raw materials such that prices rise.

Have you forgotten that even with printing mills running full time, the government has no money unless it takes it from someone who has earned it, either now or later. When private business builds a railroad it does not costs me anything unless I use it.

Quote from: Econ4Every1 on December 29, 2016, 01:12:08 PMYet we funded 2 major wars for trillions of dollars without creating hyperinflation...??  Hmmmm?  How did we do that?  We did it because the labor and real raw materials existed in the economy to create the things necessary to fight 2 wars.

Wars are financed thru the sale of treasury notes and bonds.

Hmm...            Mom told me there would be days like this. 

Quote from: zewazir on December 29, 2016, 01:45:56 PM
You ignore the fact that wages and salaries invariably lag behind inflation, and therefore the buying power of the citizenry is still diminished. The end result is Joe Average Citizen cannot purchase what they could purchase before deficit spending on the part of government caused inflation to decrease the value of their labor.

Can you provide me a source on that?

Quote from: Econ4Every1 on December 29, 2016, 06:26:52 PM
Can you provide me a source on that?

You scoffed at Solar's and Taxed's credentials as businessmen.

Just what are your credentials?

Quote from: Econ4Every1 on December 29, 2016, 06:26:52 PM
Can you provide me a source on that?

Hmm...  More seniors are going back to work just to make ends meet.  Inflation has wiped out their nest egg. 

Quote from: Econ4Every1 on December 29, 2016, 06:26:52 PM
Can you provide me a source on that?

This right here, this is why I refuse to entertain your lunacy.
You haven't the first clue how our economy is supposed to function, it's why you asked him to provide the most basic knowledge, something you would find in a first year econ class.
Crack a damn book and come back in a year.

Quote from: Solar on December 29, 2016, 09:46:36 AM

Besides being a stowaway and complaining about the decor and how seat dispersion needs to be greatly improved upon.
Minutiae, always about the inconsequential shit and completely missing the big picture, that we're heading for certain demise, because no matter how hard one tries, you can't make fuel out of existing fuel.

Point being, he thinks the govt can simply create value by printing money, though he refuses to admit that's his ARGUMENT, THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT HE'S DOING.

How creepy is it that he's in his late 40s with this perspective on things?  I'm going to lock my doors and make sure my camera is recording....

Quote from: taxed on December 29, 2016, 10:16:50 PM
How creepy is it that he's in his late 40s with this perspective on things?  I'm going to lock my doors and make sure my camera is recording....

I give him Mises, he responds with a Washpo article, I quote Milton Friedman, he spews socialist dogma.
I'm willing to bet he thinks Ayn Rand had horns and cloven feet, assuming he even knows who she is...

I'm still waiting to hear his sage wisdom over his claim:

"There is an argument to be made for income inequality".

Maybe he can school us on the OWS movement, or the Social inequalities under Supply Side economics.
My guess would be, based on what he's written, he has a wealth envy issue, kind of like those born with a mental illness and go into psychiatry, instead, he takes an interest in the field of economics 'only' while completely neglecting our Constitution in regards to capitalism and free mkt ideals.

Quote from: Solar on December 30, 2016, 03:59:35 AM
I give him Mises, he responds with a Washpo article, I quote Milton Friedman, he spews socialist dogma.
I'm willing to bet he thinks Ayn Rand had horns and cloven feet, assuming he even knows who she is...

I'm still waiting to hear his sage wisdom over his claim:

"There is an argument to be made for income inequality".

Maybe he can school us on the OWS movement, or the Social inequalities under Supply Side economics.
My guess would be, based on what he's written, he has a wealth envy issue, kind of like those born with a mental illness and go into psychiatry, instead, he takes an interest in the field of economics 'only' while completely neglecting our Constitution in regards to capitalism and free mkt ideals.

I hope he isn't spewing this crap to his kids.  That's all we need -- more Bernie kids...