Quote from: Supposn on February 15, 2014, 07:52:27 AM
Taxed, the justification of the minimum wage is that our nation's least paid workers and job applicants are certainly at severe disadvantage when negotiating with employers' of labor.

That only happens if the balance of supply and demand are out of whack, and if the government is interfering. Think about all the jobs you are costing young people.  Don't you feel ashamed waking up every day knowing you support something destructive like that?

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  The pay scale of our lowest paid labor affects all other pay scales.  Its affect is inversely related; it greatest effect is upon the lowest quarter of our nation's wage earners.

Please articulate what you are trying to say here.  I'm not sure you have a grasp on what you think you're trying to say.

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[As jobs' the purchasing power of individual jobs' pay scales increase, the minimum wage rate's effect upon the jobs' purchasing power proportionally decline incrementally.  As jobs' pay scales approach the median wage rate, the minimum wage's effect upon individual job's pay rates become extremely less perceivable].

Huh?

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You correctly to question the benefit of a legal minimum wage that does not keep pace with the purchasing power of the U.S. dollar.
That's why I'm among the many that advocate the federal minimum wage should be annually evaluated and adjusted to the cost-price index.  That method has been excellently functioning as it's now applied to social security retirement benefits.

No it hasn't.  Employment goes down as minimum wage goes up.  You don't understand what you're writing, making you impossible to converse with.

I just went and read some of your posts.  I see through your act, and know you're doing this intentionally.  If you do this again and don't discuss like a real poster and a normal human being, then I'll dump you with the other house-cleaning I'm doing tomorrow.  Knock it off.

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Respectfully, Supposn

Disrespectfully,  taxed

Quote from: taxed on February 15, 2014, 10:12:25 PM
That only happens if the balance of supply and demand are out of whack, and if the government is interfering. Think about all the jobs you are costing young people.  Don't you feel ashamed waking up every day knowing you support something destructive like that?

Please articulate what you are trying to say here.  I'm not sure you have a grasp on what you think you're trying to say.

Huh?

No it hasn't.  Employment goes down as minimum wage goes up.  You don't understand what you're writing, making you impossible to converse with.

I just went and read some of your posts.  I see through your act, and know you're doing this intentionally.  If you do this again and don't discuss like a real poster and a normal human being, then I'll dump you with the other house-cleaning I'm doing tomorrow.  Knock it off.
Disrespectfully,  taxed

I've been reading his arguments for sometime now, and finally came to a conclusion as to why they are all wet and never made sense.
They aren't based in reality, they go completely against the Capitalist system, an equal chance of being a success.
Instead, they are based in pure emotion, and use big government to as a tool of choosing winners and losers.

He completely fails to understand that raising the wage of the lowest employee to a living wage, is a guarantee that these people have no reason to improve their station in life, advance themselves, try for a better paying position.
So what happens when people keep entry level jobs and never move on?
Exactly! They keep someone else from entering the mkt, because these people are suddenly overpaid and cut into the profits of all business, people had to be let go, most likely the lowest paid worker, so the winners were chosen.

All this micromanagement has done are couple things, kept young people from gaining skills needed to be a success in life by limiting their entrance into the job mkt, and caused layoffs in the job mkt resulting in even more people looking to enter the welfare roles as a permanent drain on the economy.

Raising the min wage does absolutely nothing but hurt the very people these stupid bleeding hearts claim they want to help, all it does is appease the "SUPPOSED" guilt these morons "FEEL".
This is not reality in thinking, this is pure emotion getting in the way of critical thinking.

GO through a McDonals drive thru 4 times and have them get your order wrong at least twice and tell me if you think those mouth breathing nitwits should be making $15 per hour. 

Proponents of a minimum wage forget that the government cannot increase real wages, only nominal.

Quote from: TowardLiberty link=topic=14625.msg17*5511#msg175511 date=1392562967
Proponents of a minimum wage forget that the government cannot increase real wages, only nominal.

Which is why they know raising the min wage is a lie, or they'd be demanding everyone make 300 an hour.

Quote from: Supposn on February 07, 2014, 02:41:28 AM
TBoneAgain, "Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it."
George Santayana

You mean like the Swiss? Granted they have no min wage, but entry level jobs are all unionized labor, which is extremely high.
So where do these kids go to get work? Germany, which leads to a brain drain for the Swiss.

Sweden's minimum wages 'too high': OECD
The OECD on Monday urged Sweden to do more for those excluded from the job market, saying high minimum wages and poorly targeted integration policies were leaving some groups mired in poverty.

Published: 17 Dec 2012 14:53 CET

"Some groups such as youth with limited education, some immigrants, and those on sickness and disability benefits are not well integrated," the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development said in the report.

To boost employment in those groups it said Sweden should lower wages for entry-level jobs, improve vocational and academic training, and ensure active labour market policies were better targeted to individual needs.

Sweden, famous for its egalitarian policies, also needed to reduce the gap in job protection between temporary and permanent employment so that people were not trapped in temporary contracts, it said.

The Paris-based organization added that "relatively high minimum wages set through collective bargaining tend to push up labour costs", noting that minimum wages in Sweden averaged around two thirds of the median salary.

Although the country's wage setting has become more decentralized, that ratio was still the second highest in the OECD in 2010.

"The government should continue talks with social partners to find ways to improve job prospects for groups at risk," it said.

The OECD also warned that Sweden's large banking system "entails risks and potential costs", singling out high household debt as a risk should housing prices fall or unemployment rise.

The Swedish unemployment rate stood at 7.6 percent last year, compared with an 8.2 percent average for the organization's member countries.

However, youth unemployment was comparatively high at 22.9 percent, compared with 16.2 percent in the OECD.

The OECD also said it expects Swedish economic growth to drop to 1.2 percent this year, down from a growth rate of 3.9 percent in 2011.

Growth is expected to recover somewhat in 2013, rising to 1.9 percent before increasing to 3.0 percent in 2014, according to the OECD.
http://www.thelocal.se/jobs/?site=tlse&AID=45122

Supposn, here is something else to absorb.

Most unions in Switzerland are supportive of a proposal to establish a legal minimum wage but at least one has come out forcefully against the proposal.

Swiss citizens will vote on May 18th on an initiative to establish a monthly minimum wage of 4,000 francs ($4,560) but Employés Suisses (known in German as Angestellte Schweiz) says this would hurt middle-class wage earners.

It's a "false good idea," Stefan Studer, director of the union, told a forum on state broadcaster RTS's radio station la Première on Sunday.

The union is concerned about several aspects of the proposal, starting with the idea of a single minimum rate for all employees in all sectors, Studer said.

The union, which represents 23,00 workers in machinery, electrical equipment, metal and chemical-pharma industries, fears a bottom hourly wage of 22 francs an hour inscribed by law would lead to a "levelling down" of wages overall.

Employés Suisses favors a social partnership approach and the establishment of collective work agreements through negotiations with employers, Studer said.

The union worries that if the minimum wage idea is successful it would drag down middle class wages while companies unable to pay the minimum salaries would lay off workers or move out of the country.

Studer said the group is sensitive to the concerns of the "working poor" but he said there are other ways to tackle this issue, by increasing training, for example.

Most unions in Switzerland have come out in support of the minimum wage proposal, which has been opposed by a majority of lawmakers in Swiss parliament.

The federal government is also against the initiative, saying that it would be counter-productive, hurting Swiss competitiveness while leading to job cuts.

Economy Minister Johann Schneider-Ammann has warned that the lowest-paid workers would suffer the worst consequences from the initiative, which he said would threaten the existence of small companies in retail, catering and agriculture sectors, among others.

The SGB union which launched the minimum wage proposal argues that 330,000 workers in Switzerland earn less than 4,000 francs a month, an amount that is "insufficient" to cope with the country's high cost of living.

The union argues that the minimum wage would ensure employers can no longer import cheap labour from outside the country and it would counter pay discrimination against women.

The proposed wage is more than triple the rate in the US ($7.25) and double the minimum set in the UK (£6.41) and in Germany (€8.50). 

Malcolm Curtis ([email protected])

Quote from: Solar on March 12, 2014, 07:30:24 AM
Supposn, here is something else to absorb.
Swiss citizens will vote on May 18th on an initiative to establish a monthly minimum wage of 4,000 francs ($4,560) but Employés Suisses (known in German as Angestellte Schweiz) says this would hurt middle-class wage earners. ...

... The union is concerned about several aspects of the proposal, starting with the idea of a single minimum rate for all employees in all sectors, Studer said.

The union, which represents 23,00 workers in machinery, electrical equipment, metal and chemical-pharma industries, fears a bottom hourly wage of 22 francs an hour inscribed by law would lead to a "levelling down" of wages overall.

Employés Suisses favors a social partnership approach and the establishment of collective work agreements through negotiations with employers, Studer said.

The union worries that if the minimum wage idea is successful it would drag down middle class wages while companies unable to pay the minimum salaries would lay off workers or move out of the country.

Studer said the group is sensitive to the concerns of the "working poor" but he said there are other ways to tackle this issue, by increasing training, for example. ...

... Economy Minister Johann Schneider-Ammann has warned that the lowest-paid workers would suffer the worst consequences from the initiative, which he said would threaten the existence of small companies in retail, catering and agriculture sectors, among others. ...

... Malcolm Curtis ([email protected])

Solar, the extent of minimum wage's quantative effect upon all wage scales are somewhat similar; thus the minimum's effect upon wage scales cannot be of similar proportional effect upon all wage scales.  The minimum rate's purchasing power's effect upon a wage scale's purchasing power is inverse to the wage scale's purchasing power; (i.e. lower wage rates are greater effected, higher wage rates are lesser effected by the minimum rate).
Although the minimum wage does not proportionally affect all wage scales equally, its effect is always positive.  The minimum rate does not in any manner reduce or induce "leveling down" of any wage scales or for any tasks.  Employers are pleased if voters could be convinced to believe otherwise.

Unskilled low wage employees and job applicants are generally at disadvantage when negotiating with employers of labor and a labor market's effective minimum rate affects all of the market's wage rates.  That's the justification of the minimum wage laws. (Refer to the first post of this discussion thread).

Respectfully, Supposn

Quote from: Supposn on March 27, 2014, 11:38:59 PM
Solar, the extent of minimum wage's quantative effect upon all wage scales are somewhat similar; thus the minimum's effect upon wage scales cannot be of similar proportional effect upon all wage scales.  The minimum rate's purchasing power's effect upon a wage scale's purchasing power is inverse to the wage scale's purchasing power; (i.e. lower wage rates are greater effected, higher wage rates are lesser effected by the minimum rate).
Although the minimum wage does not proportionally affect all wage scales equally, its effect is always positive.  The minimum rate does not in any manner reduce or induce "leveling down" of any wage scales or for any tasks.  Employers are pleased if voters could be convinced to believe otherwise.

Unskilled low wage employees and job applicants are generally at disadvantage when negotiating with employers of labor and a labor market's effective minimum rate affects all of the market's wage rates.  That's the justification of the minimum wage laws. (Refer to the first post of this discussion thread).

Respectfully, Supposn

And what about those who find themselves priced out of the labor market?

There is no justification for using force to impose controls on prices.

Quote from: Supposn on March 27, 2014, 11:38:59 PM
Solar, the extent of minimum wage's quantative effect upon all wage scales are somewhat similar; thus the minimum's effect upon wage scales cannot be of similar proportional effect upon all wage scales.  The minimum rate's purchasing power's effect upon a wage scale's purchasing power is inverse to the wage scale's purchasing power; (i.e. lower wage rates are greater effected, higher wage rates are lesser effected by the minimum rate).
Although the minimum wage does not proportionally affect all wage scales equally, its effect is always positive.  The minimum rate does not in any manner reduce or induce "leveling down" of any wage scales or for any tasks.  Employers are pleased if voters could be convinced to believe otherwise.

Unskilled low wage employees and job applicants are generally at disadvantage when negotiating with employers of labor and a labor market's effective minimum rate affects all of the market's wage rates.  That's the justification of the minimum wage laws. (Refer to the first post of this discussion thread).

Respectfully, Supposn

Either you didn't read the article, or have a serious comprehension issue.
Hell, it's a socialist state, and even they know forcing a ridiculously high MW is a job killer, yet you can't see the logic, you see only the emotional connection.

And when one realizes that nominal wage increases are not real, then even the appearance of a justification evaporates.

Quote from: Supposn on March 27, 2014, 11:38:59 PM
Solar, the extent of minimum wage's quantative effect upon all wage scales are somewhat similar; thus the minimum's effect upon wage scales cannot be of similar proportional effect upon all wage scales.  The minimum rate's purchasing power's effect upon a wage scale's purchasing power is inverse to the wage scale's purchasing power; (i.e. lower wage rates are greater effected, higher wage rates are lesser effected by the minimum rate).
Although the minimum wage does not proportionally affect all wage scales equally, its effect is always positive.  The minimum rate does not in any manner reduce or induce "leveling down" of any wage scales or for any tasks.  Employers are pleased if voters could be convinced to believe otherwise.

Unskilled low wage employees and job applicants are generally at disadvantage when negotiating with employers of labor and a labor market's effective minimum rate affects all of the market's wage rates.  That's the justification of the minimum wage laws. (Refer to the first post of this discussion thread).

Respectfully, Supposn

I have avoided commenting on your posts on the minimum wage mainly because they make no sense, but also because your position is one of absolute faith, and not one of logic or reason. It isn't difficult to see how you feel about it -- you would happily sell your soul for a 'hockey stick' graph depicting the miracles of the minimum wage -- but you're completely unable to communicate that feeling in sentences that make sense and don't contradict one another, as the above sentences do. I make exception in this case because you've finally managed to get it out in clear terms -- a tiny nugget of clarity floating in your usual mishmash of contradictions and brutal manglings of the English language.

So I've bolded it in case anyone missed it -- Supposn believes, in so many words, that the effect of a minimum wage is "always positive," and by extension cannot be negative. And he supports that position with the same data he used the last time and the time before that and the time before that -- none. Clearly, this is not his position, but rather his faith.

I hereby nominate you, sir, to be the first (and last) High Priest of the Everlasting Universal Church of the Hallowed and Beneficent Redistributive Minimum Wage. May John Maynard Keynes have mercy on us all.

Quote from: TboneAgain on March 28, 2014, 08:17:43 AM
I have avoided commenting on your posts on the minimum wage mainly because they make no sense, but also because your position is one of absolute faith, and not one of logic or reason. It isn't difficult to see how you feel about it -- you would happily sell your soul for a 'hockey stick' graph depicting the miracles of the minimum wage -- but you're completely unable to communicate that feeling in sentences that make sense and don't contradict one another, as the above sentences do. I make exception in this case because you've finally managed to get it out in clear terms -- a tiny nugget of clarity floating in your usual mishmash of contradictions and brutal manglings of the English language.

So I've bolded it in case anyone missed it -- Supposn believes, in so many words, that the effect of a minimum wage is "always positive," and by extension cannot be negative. And he supports that position with the same data he used the last time and the time before that and the time before that -- none. Clearly, this is not his position, but rather his faith.

I hereby nominate you, sir, to be the first (and last) High Priest of the Everlasting Universal Church of the Hallowed and Beneficent Redistributive Minimum Wage. May John Maynard Keynes have mercy on us all.

Glad to see I'm not the only that can't decipher 90% of his bull shit. One can only assume English is not his first language, in fact, it reminds me of a product I once purchased, the instructions were originally written in Chinese, translated to Spanish, to Italian, then English.
Absolute destruction of syntax. "To please screw placing slot firmly while holding tool, drive forcefully careful to not tighten."
Yeah, he makes that much sense, but injects the Hell out of it with an emotional attachment, yet fails to convey either point.

Quote from: Solar on March 28, 2014, 08:49:54 AM
Glad to see I'm not the only that can't decipher 90% of his bull shit. One can only assume English is not his first language, in fact, it reminds me of a product I once purchased, the instructions were originally written in Chinese, translated to Spanish, to Italian, then English.
Absolute destruction of syntax. "To please screw placing slot firmly while holding tool, drive forcefully careful to not tighten."
Yeah, he makes that much sense, but injects the Hell out of it with an emotional attachment, yet fails to convey either point.

I remember trying to install something on a car once -- probably 40 years ago -- and the instructions told me: "To avoid the connections trouble...." Taken on its own merits, the phrase is technically correct -- or at least not technically incorrect -- but nevertheless it's an unmistakable red flag indicating the writer ain't from around here. The product I was installing was Japanese-made and I'm sure the author was Japanese, but despite that, I kept picturing a Frenchman saying the words. Think Inspector Clouseau. I have been laughing about that ever since; every time I think of a foreigner butchering the language, that five-word phrase comes to my mind.

Yes, one must assume that English is not his first language; at the same time, one must hope it is not his best.

Quote from: TboneAgain on March 28, 2014, 09:09:19 AM
I remember trying to install something on a car once -- probably 40 years ago -- and the instructions told me: "To avoid the connections trouble...." Taken on its own merits, the phrase is technically correct -- or at least not technically incorrect -- but nevertheless it's an unmistakable red flag indicating the writer ain't from around here. The product I was installing was Japanese-made and I'm sure the author was Japanese, but despite that, I kept picturing a Frenchman saying the words. Think Inspector Clouseau. I have been laughing about that ever since; every time I think of a foreigner butchering the language, that five-word phrase comes to my mind.

Yes, one must assume that English is not his first language; at the same time, one must hope it is not his best.